Curse

Rhys ap Llysgwr · Mar 15, 2006, 09:04 PM // 21:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mercury Angel

I have no idea what you're going on about...
-Numbers are in reference to another poster's comments about attunements, and they're there to explain how attunements work, as they seemed to misunderstand them.
-Yes, there's no such thing as armor that increases maximum energy, or staves/wands/focii or other equipment with passive energy bonuses on them. Thus, we can not possibly fathom the effects of a set increase in maximum energy.
-At no point in time did I ever express anything to indicate that expertise works with spells. If that's in reference to someone else's post, you generally want to separate it from the line where you're already talking to someone directly. Particularly after quoted material.

I'm not "going on about" anything. My post was a general response to the idea that energy storage sucks. I did not imply that you claimed expertise works with spells, but others have tried to compare es with expertise. However since I did choose your post to quote, I can see where it looks that way - my sincerest apologies.

As to items and armor which boost energy, they use various gear slots - not attribute points. Trying to relate the relative effectiveness of energy bonuses derived from using armor or weapon slots vs the use of attribute points is a little arbitrary dont you think?

Symbol · Mar 15, 2006, 09:32 PM // 21:32

Quote:

No, "high-damage aoe" and "various spike options" is highly accurate.

No it is completely wrong. Elementalist AoE is only "high damage" if you routinely manage to catch two or three people per cast. This is not the case with the current tiny radii.

The various spike options are actually "two viable spike options". Namely lightning orb and obsidian flame. Of the two, only the latter is really good.

Quote:

I'm not "going on about" anything. My post was a general response to the idea that energy storage sucks. I did not imply that you claimed expertise works with spells, but others have tried to compare es with expertise. However since I did choose your post to quote, I can see where it looks that way - my sincerest apologies.

There's nothing wrong with comparing expertise to energy storage. Claiming they are not comparable because expertise doesn't work on spells is retarded. Both are supposed to be energy management. It just so happens energy storage fails utterly at this task while expertise is completely awesome at it.

Quote:

As to items and armor which boost energy, they use various gear slots - not attribute points. Trying to relate the relative effectiveness of energy bonuses derived from using armor or weapon slots vs the use of attribute points is a little arbitrary dont you think?

No, the only thing arbitrary is the distinction you're trying to make.

James Earthwarder · Mar 15, 2006, 10:21 PM // 22:21

From experience I can tell you that as long as you bring a energy managment skill(Elemental attunement, Glyph of Energy, Ether Prodigy, Ether renewal, and gylph of lesser energy) eles won't run out of energy all that fast. The only problem with is that all of them except GOLE are elite skills. This means that in order to compete with other classes eles have to waste their elite on energy managment. I have never seen\used a half decent in ele in pvp that actually used an elite that dmgs anyone but themsleves(Ether Prodigy).

dreamhunk · Mar 15, 2006, 11:25 PM // 23:25

When I look at elemental class it seems to me this class is a back burner class. Elementals seem to get the short end of the stick in everything.

Linkusmax · Mar 16, 2006, 12:07 AM // 00:07

Note: I have only had time to reaqd the first couple of pages, and all my statements have to do with PvP

What I find disturbing is that the most effective build for an elementalist in a 1v1 situation against a warrior is in fact a water build. A skill line which is intended to be a utility line in the first place. This is the reason we run them so often in GvG as flag runners. This is also why they are part of the 3 man anti-gank split in my build. Even though then the water ele has to give up its anti condition/hex to do this.

The only way in the current meta-game to make an ele effective as a damage dealer when monks are present is through fire AoE and only then does it work if you can handle the huge energy drain. Whats the way you do that? Energizing Winds, Energizing Winds is great for preassure builds but thats about it as to get the damage nessercary and still have a flag runner in GvG you can only have a 2 monk backline. In order to run EW we need to make the two Fire eles we use E/R Which cuts down on the damage of the build. This build mind you only works because of the burning condition caused by it.

E/R
Glyph of Renewal --> Rodgorts Invocation --> Incedinary Bonds ---> Meteor ---> Rodgorts Invocation

E/Me
Glyph of Renewal --> Rodgorts Invocation --> Incedinary Bonds ---> Meteor ---> Arcane Echo ---> Rodgorts Invocation ---> Rodgorts Invocation

This is of course conditional on that you can get people in groups. It almost nearly useless in HA because you can't hold alters very well.

Ensign · Mar 16, 2006, 12:29 AM // 00:29

The kings of AoE are mesmers with Energy Surge. Surge has a larger AoE than any elementalist skill, the damage is all armor ignoring, and it doubles as edenial as well, something that's an important part of any mass damage build. Rodgort's deals more damage to the people it hits, but it doesn't hit nearly as many people, plus it has a long cast time and a huge energy cost. It just isn't as good as an AoE option.

For 'spike' options elementalists have two, Lightning Orb and Obsidian Flame. Of the two only Obsidian Flame is actually any good, which is why true spike groups always use earth elementalists instead of air guys. Lightning Orb has poor accuracy and is overcosted. However if you need an elementalist for other reasons (Blinding Flash, Ward Against Melee, Heal Party, Ether Prodigy) you pretty much have to run some sort of spike skill if you actually want to kill people, so you find a way to make Orb or Flame work.

I've played a blind turret quite a bit in the last month, and I cannot begin to tell you how much I hate Lightning Orb. You're just pissing energy into a skill that doesn't do much. At the same time, I can tell you with confidence that I'd run it even if it cost 25 energy. Why? Because you need to spike with something and there is absolutely nothing else available. I don't think the elementalist is a bad character to run because he does have those nice defensive options (Flash, Ward, Prodigy -> Draw, Party), but it would be nice if, oh, I dunno, he actually had some damage dealing skills that I *wanted* to run.

Peace,
-CxE

Scav · Mar 16, 2006, 02:13 AM // 02:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by thunderpower

...
You could say eles have energy managment skills, etc, etc... True, enchants. You get stripped of those in notime in pvp.

This is pruelly a pvp strat.. Ya can always use quick cast/recharge enchs..

After all I don't think energy storage should be buffed.. It is usefull, if ya know how to use it.. Big Mana supply means ya can quickly devastate your target..

Expert on rangers is an other isue, which I think has to be reworked.. Makes rangers way too powerfull as they all ready are.. Makes no sence.. The only things it doesn't work on are spells, it works on everythin' else.. No other attribute is that usefull..

Rhys ap Llysgwr · Mar 16, 2006, 02:14 AM // 02:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Symbol

No it is completely wrong. Elementalist AoE is only "high damage" if you routinely manage to catch two or three people per cast. This is not the case with the current tiny radii.

"Tiny radii"? Rodgerts Invocation aoe is all foes "in the area" which is as big as it gets short of spirits aoe. Moreover, altar matches make skills like flamburst, fireball, meteor etc very likely to hit multiple foes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Symbol

The various spike options are actually "two viable spike options". Namely lightning orb and obsidian flame. Of the two, only the latter is really good.

Wrong again, elementalists are often a part of rainbow spike. Good balanced teams will also pressure with a "spike option" when the warrior(s) get enough adrenaline - eles (typically obs flame) are very often a component of this. My guild does it and it works just fine. So that is 4 distinct spiking strategies involving the elementalist, 3 of which you will commonly see.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Symbol

There's nothing wrong with comparing expertise to energy storage. Claiming they are not comparable because expertise doesn't work on spells is retarded. Both are supposed to be energy management. It just so happens energy storage fails utterly at this task while expertise is completely awesome at it.

No, the only thing arbitrary is the distinction you're trying to make.

Expertise is NOT comparable to energy storage. It is designed to work with a specific class for a specific subset of skills. Energy storage is designed for a totally different class and different subset of skills. Apples and oranges. Claiming that energy storage "completely fails" at energy management is based on nothing except your misguided opinion. Try to think things through before you post.

Scav · Mar 16, 2006, 02:16 AM // 02:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by James Earthwarder

From experience I can tell you that as long as you bring a energy managment skill(Elemental attunement, Glyph of Energy, Ether Prodigy, Ether renewal, and gylph of lesser energy) eles won't run out of energy all that fast. The only problem with is that all of them except GOLE are elite skills. This means that in order to compete with other classes eles have to waste their elite on energy managment. I have never seen\used a half decent in ele in pvp that actually used an elite that dmgs anyone but themsleves(Ether Prodigy).

Mind Shock durrin' spikes..

Mysterial · Mar 16, 2006, 04:35 AM // 04:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rhys ap Llysgwr

"Tiny radii"? Rodgerts Invocation aoe is all foes "in the area" which is as big as it gets short of spirits aoe. Moreover, altar matches make skills like flamburst, fireball, meteor etc very likely to hit multiple foes.

Actually, you might want to check that. Rodgort's Invocation has been "nearby foes" since at least the update when they reduced the cast time to 3 seconds, possibly eariler, despite what the skill description said until recently (they fixed the description amidst the balance changes). If it were to have "in the area", it'd be a good spell. Unfortunately, it doesn't.

Quote:

Expertise is NOT comparable to energy storage. It is designed to work with a specific class for a specific subset of skills. Energy storage is designed for a totally different class and different subset of skills. Apples and oranges. Claiming that energy storage "completely fails" at energy management is based on nothing except your misguided opinion. Try to think things through before you post.

Or you might want to pay attention. Energy Storage doesn't change the fact that, without energy management skills, in order to be effective at a constant rate, you must not exceed the 1.33 energy per second provided by your regeneration. The only way in which Energy Storage is useful is when having more energy gives you more energy (attunements, which suck in PvP because of the insane recharge times) or when Exhaustion provides an effect for a cheaper than normal cost (e.g. Meteor) and/or restores Energy through Exhausion (e.g. Ether Prodigy). Those options are severly limited.

Hormus · Mar 16, 2006, 07:10 AM // 07:10

Well , i get pissed when ignorant warriors bullied out an also ignorant ele and by that they think they are the best class ,

I prefer the rangers cause i like em goin rosted in less than 10secs , they freak out when they see that the ele cant get interupted and try to flee , my pvp tactic is to let any foe know that im a louzy noobie firestorm caller and and i got to get down , BIG mistake , come to daddy boys , i wanna show u my bond

Question : a double phoenix can kill 3 rangers in once ?

Question : Which is the most damage deallin skill of all classes ? say more than 200hp that phoenix can deal ?

Symbol · Mar 16, 2006, 07:27 AM // 07:27

Quote:

"Tiny radii"? Rodgerts Invocation aoe is all foes "in the area" which is as big as it gets short of spirits aoe. Moreover, altar matches make skills like flamburst, fireball, meteor etc very likely to hit multiple foes.

RI is "nearby". Check the description.

Quote:

Wrong again, elementalists are often a part of rainbow spike. Good balanced teams will also pressure with a "spike option" when the warrior(s) get enough adrenaline - eles (typically obs flame) are very often a component of this. My guild does it and it works just fine. So that is 4 distinct spiking strategies involving the elementalist, 3 of which you will commonly see.

Failure to comprehend english. I say obs flame and orb are the only two viable spike options. You say you include obs flame elementalists in rainbow spikes and then say I'm wrong. Wow, I mean, just wow.

Tell me, do you actually read what you type before you press the post button or is it more of a "flail about and mash keys with your eyes closed" sort of thing?

Quote:

Expertise is NOT comparable to energy storage. It is designed to work with a specific class for a specific subset of skills. Energy storage is designed for a totally different class and different subset of skills. Apples and oranges. Claiming that energy storage "completely fails" at energy management is based on nothing except your misguided opinion.

They are both energy management. Which skills they apply to are neither here nor there. One is much better than the other at allowing you to use your energy intensive skills, for obvious reasons.

Quote:

Try to think things through before you post.

Lol. I think your post speaks for itself. And it isn't saying good things...

LightningHell · Mar 16, 2006, 09:05 AM // 09:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hormus

Well , i get pissed when ignorant warriors bullied out an also ignorant ele and by that they think they are the best class ,

I prefer the rangers cause i like em goin rosted in less than 10secs , they freak out when they see that the ele cant get interupted and try to flee , my pvp tactic is to let any foe know that im a louzy noobie firestorm caller and and i got to get down , BIG mistake , come to daddy boys , i wanna show u my bond

Question : a double phoenix can kill 3 rangers in once ?

Question : Which is the most damage deallin skill of all classes ? say more than 200hp that phoenix can deal ?

I think he needs some enlightenment...

Firstly: RANGERS HAVE +ELEMENTAL ARMOR. Use better examples. For example, you might say you killed that Warrior with a triple phoenix, but saying you killed a Ranger with a double phoenix is just plain ignorant.

Secondly:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hormus

Question : Which is the most damage deallin skill of all classes ? say more than 200hp that phoenix can deal ?

Firstly, I never knew a Phoenix can deal 200 damage. Secondly, Elementalist currently suck at damage.

Thirdly: Bond? Incendiary Bonds? Are you serious? Uh...maybe not.

Don't say "OMFG WARROIR NOOB CUMMIN T0 POST!!!11!!". My area of expertise is the Elementalist.

I'll leave the rest to others.

EDIT: Some people just need to have brains. Tis the sad truth.

Ole Man Bourbon · Mar 16, 2006, 04:37 PM // 16:37

What I hate about Eles is that numerous common monk spells, like Protective Spirit, Reversal of Fortune, and Life Bond, can almost totally shut down the damage of an Ele.

Eles seem to be at their best when playing utility roles, being undercover Mesmers and Monks and such.

As far as damage goes, I've come to believe that Fire spiking is as good as any other Ele style, which is kinda sad for Eles.

Count to Potato · Mar 16, 2006, 04:41 PM // 16:41

As an ele, i say use ether prodigy while casting spells simple and easy, or use ele attument with fire air earth or water so that you get 80% energy back

qwe4rty · Mar 16, 2006, 06:32 PM // 18:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scav

After all I don't think energy storage should be buffed.. It is usefull, if ya know how to use it.. Big Mana supply means ya can quickly devastate your target..

Expert on rangers is an other isue, which I think has to be reworked.. Makes rangers way too powerfull as they all ready are.. Makes no sence.. The only things it doesn't work on are spells, it works on everythin' else.. No other attribute is that usefull..

Thats just the point I've been trying to make. A large Energy Pool does not mean you can quickly devestate your opponent. You can barely keep up the DPS of a warrior, and when you spend all your energy, your down to nothing.

You can't cast the big expensive spells, you can't chain as many spells together. Your down on your luck.

Energy storage only helps you in the very beginning when you can just unleash spells. Your not going to fill that pull again, and all its doing is acting as an exhaustion buffer.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rhys ap Llysgwr

Expertise is NOT comparable to energy storage. It is designed to work with a specific class for a specific subset of skills. Energy storage is designed for a totally different class and different subset of skills. Apples and oranges. Claiming that energy storage "completely fails" at energy management is based on nothing except your misguided opinion. Try to think things through before you post.

Explain how they are not comparable? I can compare them right now for you.

Energy storage lets you cast your big spells at the very beginning, and then does nothing the rest of the game EXCEPT buffer ehaustion and increase the effectiveness of some spells.

Expertise allows you to cast big things throughout the game at a lower cost.

For example, late game Elementalist wanting to cast a 25 energy spell needs all 25 energy. Ranger doesn't need nearly that much to use dust trap or concussion shot.

Ranger will be able to use his big guns a lot more often. Expertise is useful all game without using any expertise skills.
Elementalist's Energy Storage after your initial nuke is a waste of space. Its not helping you cast your things any easier. You still need to pay the overpriced costs for spells. And you have half your energy bank as a buffer for exhausion.

The only thing Energy Storage does is increase effectiveness of spells, much like more attribute points into fire, or inspiration, etc.

The spells for an Elementalist to get energy back is also fairly weak.
Dual Attunements - still require full price of spell, are fragile and easily taken off, and have a long cooldown.
Ether Renewal -........

Ether prodigy is the only really good option, and it still doesn't completely rectify the problem of
A) Elementalists Primary Attribute is bad
B) Elementalists skills are not up to par

Bugeater · Mar 16, 2006, 10:03 PM // 22:03

Energy Storage alone isn't as good at energy management as Expertise. But then again no attribute is as good at energy management as Expertise. But there are energy management skills and Energy Storage has the best energy management skill in the game hands down. I don't really have a problem with that.

What makes Elementalists very limited as a Primary class is the total cost of their skills (energy cost, cast time, recharge). Symbol was entirely right when he said that Elementalists have limited damage skills (I'd throw Lightning Strike and Fireball into the mix though). And all of them are overpriced for their damage, cast time, and recharge.

Somebody said a double Phoenix? Assuming you can actually get both casts off without being interupted, and assuming that you don't get killed before you get them both off, and assuming that whoever you're targeting keeps standing next to you for the 7 seconds it takes to cast them both, and assuming that your target has AL60...ok you get the picture.

The misconception is that Elementalists can burn through their big energy pool in a hurry can cause a lot of damage while they're doing it. The problem is that they can't. What they can do is burn through their big energy pool in a hurry and do medeocre damage. Of course then they've burned through their big energy pool and have to A) do nothing until their energy recharges and they can burn through it again or B) cast at the rate they gain energy doing horrible damage. Generally it's a little from column A and a little from column B, but the result is a largely ineffective team member.

The bigest problem that elementalists face isn't energy management. It's that the only skills they have that are worth a damn are utility skills. Until the non-utility skills are cost/time effective Elementalist primaries will only be utility characters.

Bah - is anyone else getting a case of Deja Vu?

oljomo · Mar 16, 2006, 10:21 PM // 22:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightningHell

Don't say "OMFG WARROIR NOOB CUMMIN T0 POST!!!11!!". My area of expertise is the Elementalist.

Hi

sorry i just cant take that seriously after you said obsidian flesh was a monk elite.....

And I do agree to an extent that ele has major energy problems. The easiest way i can see to do this is change attunements to skills that affect you (like troll ungeunt) that cant be stripped, but maybe cut the durations of them a bit (and remember 2-%enchantment bonuses will no longer affect tehm)

oljomo

qwe4rty · Mar 16, 2006, 10:54 PM // 22:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bugeater

What makes Elementalists very limited as a Primary class is the total cost of their skills (energy cost, cast time, recharge). Symbol was entirely right when he said that Elementalists have limited damage skills (I'd throw Lightning Strike and Fireball into the mix though). And all of them are overpriced for their damage, cast time, and recharge.

The bigest problem that elementalists face isn't energy management. It's that the only skills they have that are worth a damn are utility skills. Until the non-utility skills are cost/time effective Elementalist primaries will only be utility characters.

Bah - is anyone else getting a case of Deja Vu?

I agree, its not just the energy problems themselves, but the skills. However, even if the skills are beefed up so that they actually balanced for the requirements put on them, I think Elementalists still need a way to make Energy Storage more than just a buffer for exhaustion and an attribute pool to make Ether Prodigy last longer.

But yes, Elementalists are long due for looking into in more than just one category.

Rhys ap Llysgwr · Mar 17, 2006, 09:17 AM // 09:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Symbol

RI is "nearby". Check the description.

Try learning how to read,
From guildwars.com:

Rodgort's Invocation
Spell. Target foe and all foes in the area are struck for (Min: 7 - Max: 112) fire damage and set on fire for (Min: 1 - Max: 3) seconds.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Symbol

Failure to comprehend english. I say obs flame and orb are the only two viable spike options. You say you include obs flame elementalists in rainbow spikes and then say I'm wrong. Wow, I mean, just wow.

Tell me, do you actually read what you type before you press the post button or is it more of a "flail about and mash keys with your eyes closed" sort of thing?

Seriously, how far did you get in school? Because you seem to have some difficulty reasoning things out. My initial statement was "elementalists have various spike options". You countered with "only light orb and obs spike". I figured you meant pure light or flame spike, else why argue with me at all? If you really considered at the time that this gave the ele a role in up to 4 disintict spike builds, then what was the point of your argument? That 4 spike build types is not enough to warrant the term "various". Go back to your homework son, stay off the boards for awhile.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Symbol

They are both energy management. Which skills they apply to are neither here nor there. One is much better than the other at allowing you to use your energy intensive skills, for obvious reasons.

Lol. I think your post speaks for itself. And it isn't saying good things...

LMAO -which skills they apply to is VERY relevant. The dynamics of how much e management a skillbar needs, and what effect this has on the over-all effectiveness of a build, have everything to do with the skills themselves.

I have a sneaking suspicion I'm in a pointless argument with somone not old enough to vote yet.